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Steve Ruis's avatar

I apologize for the length here, ...

Re “Take, for example, many atheists’ overconfidence in reason. Reason is supposed to show us not just what’s wrong with religion but how we should live, acting as a guide in life in place of God or a scriptural life manual.”

Wait a minute. Are you talking about atheists who may have come to their atheism via a number of routes (mine was feeling I had been lied to by the religious officials) with the Stoics and other Greek philosophers who urged we use reason to guide our lives? I don’t find atheists to be devoted followers of reasoning per se.

Re “We’re taught that the medieval age in Europe was ruled by religious dogmatism and brutal monarchies that oppressed the peasant masses, and that progress took off only when thinkers managed to free themselves from the Church and find independent rational answers to questions about how the world works. That may be a simplification, but it’s essentially a fair characterization.”

Well, there is that and the results of the Inquisition in England that showed that the “peasant masses” were almost totally ignorant of church dogma, often volunteering heretical ideas that warranted the stake out of ignorance, but being proud that they were answering the questions correctly. Of course, being preached to in Latin, a language they didn’t understand didn’t help.

If you follow the “peasant masses” through history, they didn’t become advocates of reasoning either. It was a struggle to get education to be a part of the upbringing of ordinary folks, taking much of the nineteenth century to do that, but still through out that time in the U.S. all of the “peasant masses” were claimed to be Christians, logically I guess.

And re “Just because we have a natural function to behave in a certain way, doesn’t mean that behaviour is in any way justified.” Wait, our behaviors need to be justified? Why all of that blundering around as a child learning that stoves are hot and burned skin is painful, and if you bully little Sarah she will punch your lights out? This does not seem like there is a set of behaviors that is justified, just ones that are pragmatic resulting in less pain and more pleasure, or at least an absense of both. It is interesting that the word “justified” has a secular definition that being “having a good reason” and the theological one, that being “declared or made righteous in the sight of God.” If you use the example of the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar fumbling around for a justification other than “I wanted a fucking cookie” such things may be seen as devices to keep your parents off your back.

If one wanted to make a case of “being over confident with reason” one needs to establish what the alternatives are. What should people do other than reason. This is difficult because people rarely use just reason in most decisions they make. No matter how much data they acquire, they rarely use a data driven approach to making their decision. This is exemplified in the old joke about an executive you interviewd three women to be his new personal assistant, a blonde, a brunette, and a redhead. Each has various abilities: typing speed, dictation abilities, work history, etc. So, which one did he hire? Answer: the one with the big tits. Decision making is emotionally based as much as it is reason based, often because when coming down to a final decision the differences in the data are too difficult to parse, so one “goes with one’s gut,” aka Type 1 thinking.

If you think of a person over reliant upon reason, the only character who comes to mind is Mr. Spock of Star Trek dame. Please show me a Mr. Spock like atheist. Sam Harris?

Re “Throw in quantum mechanics and the failure of Hilbert’s program in mathematics, and you have a thoroughgoing scientific deflation of reason.”

Please keep in mind that science is still in its infancy, it is only 400 years old where as philosophy is thousands of years old. There is much, very much we do not understand and we have plucked much of the “low hanging fruit” of the things we would like to understand leaving us with harder and harder tasks. For example, we have assumed psychopathy is be a brain disease or malfunction for decades. Yet we have basically zero evidence to support this conjecture. This is reasoning giving us a conjecture, but them the conjecture lives long enough to be confused for a fact.

We do not like to say over and over that something is hypothetical or conjectural for some reason. Consider the current state of the cosmological inventions of dark energy and dark matter. They are talked about as if they were real, yet there is no evidence that they are. Science writes hate to start sentences with “According to current theory …” so they say things like “95% of the universe is made up of dark matter and dark energy” without declaring that to be a consequence of current theory. If that were true, why can’t we find the damned things. And referring to them as conjectural over and over would lead people to think, maybe these things aren’t real” which is what they should.

Re “Clearly, rational progress is possible in the sciences and their technological applications, but here the talk of “progress” is still myth-laden since technoscience seems to progress by demolishing the biosphere, thus rendering our long-term survival dubious.”

It wasn’t the technoscience doing the demolishing is was the lack of caring by the leaders of the wielders that did it. Please don’t confuse the tool with the tool user. The current state of wealth distribution in the U.S. didn’t happen because of economics. Corporations used to have a whole set of goals in addition to “make money for shareholders,” they had goals to make good jobs for workers, be good citizens of their communities, and so on. But a concerted effort by greedy executives got all of those “secondary” goals abolished in favor of just “increasing shareholder value.” That wasn’t done by reason, although “reasons” were thrown about as reasoning chaff, it was done because of greed.

Re “… prominent new atheists who have been notorious for carrying science too far in dismissing philosophy, in addition to theology.”

And just how can one perceive that their efforts are too far? Harris wrote a book on free will. What damage has that done? Dawkins wrote a book about “selfish genes”? A damage assessment, please. Science does not have much in the way of guides, Mother Nature being the most prominent. This is why I insist that science doing is largely pragmatic. You have to try it on and then see if it works. The claim of “scientism” by butt-hurt philosophers is just a slur. If you do not like someone butting into your workplace, show them how they are wrong. That is how we get progress. Labeling them as “pseudoscientists” isn’t helpful. Again, who gets to decide if an interloper has gone to far? Certainly not a lot of pearl-clutching defenders of the subject/faith. Show some fighting spirit. Get into the issues and contest the false ideas. Whing/whinging on the sidelines isn’t helpful.

And really? “No, New Atheism as a humanist movement would have been discredited if its leaders unmasked themselves as Platonic elitists who spread sophistries like scientism for the hoi palloi while reserving for themselves the grim upshot of enlightenment.”

If Dawkins had said on stage, “Really we are just Platonic elitists, you see.” The audience reaction would not have been rejection, it would have been “Huhn?” They already knew the Ph.D. sporting college professors were members of the elite. The audience was enthralled because members of the elite were telling them the Emperor had no new clothes, in fact had none at all. Members of the elite had been telling us for centuries that we had better believe this shit or we will be burned at the stake, or put upon the rack, or locked in pillories and so on. These were clearly elites (Hitch’s upper crust British accent clearly labeled him as one) and they seemed to be finally telling us the truth. That message was greater than any categorization of the truthtellers could counter.

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Milton Dawes's avatar

Only 'We' can help ourselves. A Good start (From my points of Viewing) We can start By Not Wondering as I did "What's Wrong with us?" Before. I moved unto: "There is Nothing Wrong With Us. We are like That. And "That" Includes Our Thinking...And. Our Efforts to Change. And. If We study Our Efforts to Change: We might discover A Great deal about Ourselves. Like. "Some of US desperately want some others To Be Like US. And then. There are Some Others that Do Not Want Others to be like Them. You can imagine how those conflicting impulses could lead to conflicts.

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